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	Comments on: The scourge of Rec DOT gov	</title>
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		<title>
		By: Paul Mags		</title>
		<link>https://pmags.com/the-scourge-of-rec-dot-gov#comment-700774</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Paul Mags]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Mar 2023 20:53:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://pmags.com/?p=29035#comment-700774</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://pmags.com/the-scourge-of-rec-dot-gov#comment-700772&quot;&gt;Justin&lt;/a&gt;.

Quite the scam, indeed!]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://pmags.com/the-scourge-of-rec-dot-gov#comment-700772">Justin</a>.</p>
<p>Quite the scam, indeed!</p>
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		<title>
		By: Justin		</title>
		<link>https://pmags.com/the-scourge-of-rec-dot-gov#comment-700772</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Justin]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Mar 2023 19:42:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://pmags.com/?p=29035#comment-700772</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Great article Mags. My perspective on this: when I hiked the JMT in 2019 the lottery was run by Yosemite. Your application would automatically rollover for 21 days before you had to resubmit, and you didn’t have to pay a dime until you were issued a permit. Now BAH has taken it over and every application only gets you 7 days in the lottery, and you have to pay 5 dollars every time you enter!]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great article Mags. My perspective on this: when I hiked the JMT in 2019 the lottery was run by Yosemite. Your application would automatically rollover for 21 days before you had to resubmit, and you didn’t have to pay a dime until you were issued a permit. Now BAH has taken it over and every application only gets you 7 days in the lottery, and you have to pay 5 dollars every time you enter!</p>
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		<title>
		By: Steve		</title>
		<link>https://pmags.com/the-scourge-of-rec-dot-gov#comment-700745</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Steve]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 10 Mar 2023 20:26:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://pmags.com/?p=29035#comment-700745</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://pmags.com/the-scourge-of-rec-dot-gov#comment-700741&quot;&gt;Paul Mags&lt;/a&gt;.

That’s good news for the state parks in Ca (where I live) and I hope federal agencies follow suit.

Over the pandemic, we saw nearly every CA park jump onto reservecalifornia.com, the state’s own rec.gov equivalent. As expected, walk-ups are no longer a possibility at places where they always have been. It’s become the all too familiar the 6 month in advance scramble.

Still, the National Forests and most wilderness areas remain on rec.gov. In Humbolt-Toiyabe for example, the state charges a $3 rec fee (refundable with cancellation) but BAH charges a $6 reservation fee(never-refundable).

When 2/3 of the money is going to BAH, who is working for who?

Humbolt-Toiyabe will likely be increasing their rec fees to $12 this year, which I support but fear it will be accompanied by an increase to the res fee. BAH will want their outsized cut. https://carsonnow.org/story/08/01/2022/humboldt-toiyabe-national-forest-proposes-fee-increase-hoover-wilderness-permits]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://pmags.com/the-scourge-of-rec-dot-gov#comment-700741">Paul Mags</a>.</p>
<p>That’s good news for the state parks in Ca (where I live) and I hope federal agencies follow suit.</p>
<p>Over the pandemic, we saw nearly every CA park jump onto reservecalifornia.com, the state’s own rec.gov equivalent. As expected, walk-ups are no longer a possibility at places where they always have been. It’s become the all too familiar the 6 month in advance scramble.</p>
<p>Still, the National Forests and most wilderness areas remain on rec.gov. In Humbolt-Toiyabe for example, the state charges a $3 rec fee (refundable with cancellation) but BAH charges a $6 reservation fee(never-refundable).</p>
<p>When 2/3 of the money is going to BAH, who is working for who?</p>
<p>Humbolt-Toiyabe will likely be increasing their rec fees to $12 this year, which I support but fear it will be accompanied by an increase to the res fee. BAH will want their outsized cut. <a href="https://carsonnow.org/story/08/01/2022/humboldt-toiyabe-national-forest-proposes-fee-increase-hoover-wilderness-permits" rel="nofollow ugc">https://carsonnow.org/story/08/01/2022/humboldt-toiyabe-national-forest-proposes-fee-increase-hoover-wilderness-permits</a></p>
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		<title>
		By: Paul Mags		</title>
		<link>https://pmags.com/the-scourge-of-rec-dot-gov#comment-700741</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Paul Mags]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 10 Mar 2023 05:42:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://pmags.com/?p=29035#comment-700741</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://pmags.com/the-scourge-of-rec-dot-gov#comment-700740&quot;&gt;Steve&lt;/a&gt;.

Oh, it&#039;s indeed terrible. I have no doubt people do it. The lovely campsite Joan and I went to over December is now under the BAH umbrella, and I doubt all the booked sites are getting used. Locally, there&#039;s a push to make some FCFS sites under the BAH umbrella now, too. I heard Chaco Canyon is an absolute mess with the kiosk system not working and effectively blocks FCFS sites in many ways. Grrr

Locally, I also talked to a visitor who mentioned he reserved a campsite, enjoyed the stars and the campfire...and went back to this expensive Air BnB to sleep in a bed that evening. Yep, he took up a site to have the camping experience..without the camping. But what&#039;s $30 to the 10% when you spent $250 a night or more?

On a better note,  California is attempting to put more teeth into people getting a penalty at their state parks, at least - https://www.rvtravel.com/finally-penalizing-shows-california-1092b/

&lt;em&gt;&quot;If no-show within 24 hours without notice, the entire reservation will be forfeited without a refund.
If no-show within 24 hours, the site will be made available for walk-up reservations.
...
If someone no-shows three times or more in a calendar year, future reservations are banned or limited. &quot;&lt;/em&gt;

The fees won&#039;t do much, but freeing up the site AND banning repeat offenders will undoubtedly put some teeth into the law.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://pmags.com/the-scourge-of-rec-dot-gov#comment-700740">Steve</a>.</p>
<p>Oh, it&#8217;s indeed terrible. I have no doubt people do it. The lovely campsite Joan and I went to over December is now under the BAH umbrella, and I doubt all the booked sites are getting used. Locally, there&#8217;s a push to make some FCFS sites under the BAH umbrella now, too. I heard Chaco Canyon is an absolute mess with the kiosk system not working and effectively blocks FCFS sites in many ways. Grrr</p>
<p>Locally, I also talked to a visitor who mentioned he reserved a campsite, enjoyed the stars and the campfire&#8230;and went back to this expensive Air BnB to sleep in a bed that evening. Yep, he took up a site to have the camping experience..without the camping. But what&#8217;s $30 to the 10% when you spent $250 a night or more?</p>
<p>On a better note,  California is attempting to put more teeth into people getting a penalty at their state parks, at least &#8211; <a href="https://www.rvtravel.com/finally-penalizing-shows-california-1092b/" rel="nofollow ugc">https://www.rvtravel.com/finally-penalizing-shows-california-1092b/</a></p>
<p><em>&#8220;If no-show within 24 hours without notice, the entire reservation will be forfeited without a refund.<br />
If no-show within 24 hours, the site will be made available for walk-up reservations.<br />
&#8230;<br />
If someone no-shows three times or more in a calendar year, future reservations are banned or limited. &#8220;</em></p>
<p>The fees won&#8217;t do much, but freeing up the site AND banning repeat offenders will undoubtedly put some teeth into the law.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Steve		</title>
		<link>https://pmags.com/the-scourge-of-rec-dot-gov#comment-700740</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Steve]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 10 Mar 2023 04:09:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://pmags.com/?p=29035#comment-700740</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Rangers at the physical stations are also now using the rec.gov site to issue permits. We pay those fees even for walk up slots. I’m also seeing the undeniable trend of mostly-empty “fully booked” campgrounds, mainly in popular national parks. People with money reserve blocks of dates months ahead of time on the off chance they’ll show up for a night or two. Rec.gov does not incentivize cancelling reservations, and well-to-do recreationalists don’t mid sacrificing a few bucks for the privilege of a guaranteed booking.

It’s a shameful mess with obvious solutions.

Keep sounding the alarm, Paul.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Rangers at the physical stations are also now using the rec.gov site to issue permits. We pay those fees even for walk up slots. I’m also seeing the undeniable trend of mostly-empty “fully booked” campgrounds, mainly in popular national parks. People with money reserve blocks of dates months ahead of time on the off chance they’ll show up for a night or two. Rec.gov does not incentivize cancelling reservations, and well-to-do recreationalists don’t mid sacrificing a few bucks for the privilege of a guaranteed booking.</p>
<p>It’s a shameful mess with obvious solutions.</p>
<p>Keep sounding the alarm, Paul.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Paul Mags		</title>
		<link>https://pmags.com/the-scourge-of-rec-dot-gov#comment-700716</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Paul Mags]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Mar 2023 00:45:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://pmags.com/?p=29035#comment-700716</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://pmags.com/the-scourge-of-rec-dot-gov#comment-700714&quot;&gt;Will&lt;/a&gt;.

Alas, fewer parks are letting you make RSVPs the day of. Confusing for sure.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://pmags.com/the-scourge-of-rec-dot-gov#comment-700714">Will</a>.</p>
<p>Alas, fewer parks are letting you make RSVPs the day of. Confusing for sure.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Will		</title>
		<link>https://pmags.com/the-scourge-of-rec-dot-gov#comment-700714</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Will]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 05 Mar 2023 19:50:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://pmags.com/?p=29035#comment-700714</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[It gets even more confusing (at least for me) because certain parks like big bend, Guadalupe mountains, glacier and I’m sure many others let you make reservations in person through the rangers but advance reservations are through the rec.gov site.

I didn’t realize anything about the nature of the rec.gov deal but I’ve run into conflicts and limitations at those parks depending on how you make your reservation.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It gets even more confusing (at least for me) because certain parks like big bend, Guadalupe mountains, glacier and I’m sure many others let you make reservations in person through the rangers but advance reservations are through the rec.gov site.</p>
<p>I didn’t realize anything about the nature of the rec.gov deal but I’ve run into conflicts and limitations at those parks depending on how you make your reservation.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Paul Mags		</title>
		<link>https://pmags.com/the-scourge-of-rec-dot-gov#comment-700388</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Paul Mags]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Oct 2022 02:30:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://pmags.com/?p=29035#comment-700388</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://pmags.com/the-scourge-of-rec-dot-gov#comment-700387&quot;&gt;Patrick Walsh&lt;/a&gt;.

Thanks for the kind words and for sharing.

I&#039;m not surprised the fees went up. Yikes!

I am disappointed, but not surprised, that the rec dot gov people also have a monopoly on education bookings. It&#039;s a crime that the people who most need this type of empowerment get effectively blocked from experiencing this critical part of the culture.   My wife also does educational outreach for students of modest means and mentioned the difficulties she has as well. Appalling.

It&#039;s the American way, I think, of what Martin Luther King said over two generations ago &quot;&lt;em&gt;The problem is that we all too often have socialism for the rich and rugged free enterprise capitalism for the poor.&lt;/em&gt;&quot;

The BAH&#039;s of the world get subsidized at our expense, and the poor get crumbs, at best. And the increasingly smaller middle gets squeezed.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://pmags.com/the-scourge-of-rec-dot-gov#comment-700387">Patrick Walsh</a>.</p>
<p>Thanks for the kind words and for sharing.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m not surprised the fees went up. Yikes!</p>
<p>I am disappointed, but not surprised, that the rec dot gov people also have a monopoly on education bookings. It&#8217;s a crime that the people who most need this type of empowerment get effectively blocked from experiencing this critical part of the culture.   My wife also does educational outreach for students of modest means and mentioned the difficulties she has as well. Appalling.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s the American way, I think, of what Martin Luther King said over two generations ago &#8220;<em>The problem is that we all too often have socialism for the rich and rugged free enterprise capitalism for the poor.</em>&#8221;</p>
<p>The BAH&#8217;s of the world get subsidized at our expense, and the poor get crumbs, at best. And the increasingly smaller middle gets squeezed.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Patrick Walsh		</title>
		<link>https://pmags.com/the-scourge-of-rec-dot-gov#comment-700387</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Patrick Walsh]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 15 Oct 2022 21:04:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://pmags.com/?p=29035#comment-700387</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Hi Paul,&lt;br /&gt;
And thank you for your well researched account of the appalling and indefensible scam which finds American citizens forced to pay a gratuitous billion dollar corporation to play middle man for access to our public parks or forego use of them . And this at the invitation of our own government. &#160;&#160;Unfortunately, I’m here to tell you that the BAH reach is even further and more insidious than you wrote about.&#160;(The $6.00 “fee” &#160;you write about, for example, &#160;is now $10.00. ) I am a NYC public school teacher working in Brownsville, Brooklyn, one of the most impoverished and &#160;crime ridden sections of the city.&#160;I have long believed that class trips are a vital aspect of education and for the&#160;past 15 years have taken advantage of the various National Monuments and Federal Parks &#160;to use as resources &#160;for my students.&#160;These include the African Burial Ground, Hamilton Grange, Grant’s Tomb, Teddy Roosevelt Birthplace, Federal Hall and others.&#160;The kids loved such trips and, I think, always gained a great deal from the trips which were sorely missed during the almost three years of COVID. Gaining entrance to all these &#160;sites was merely a matter of filling out a form or just as often calling the site to make a reservation. &#160;And naturally, as they were federal parks, the &#160;over 15 years of trips never cost me a thin dime.&#160;

A few days ago to my shock and disgust I learned that, for reasons &#160;that were never explained &#160;to me, if I wanted to schedule a trip to one of these sites, in this case the African Burial Ground, I was no longer &#160;to deal with the site itself.&#160;Instead, I was now obliged to sign up with something called recreation.gov and schedule through them, specifically through their education group section. &#160;When I tried to do this I learned that for the privilege of my students visiting the federal site that had been previously free I would now have to pay a $10.00 “fee.”&#160;

Naturally, this mightily pissed me off.&#160;Nonetheless, as I was given no choice in the matter and I wanted my students to experience the African Burial Ground,&#160;I took out my credit card and paid the “fee.”

The next day learned the tickets I had been sold were for Veteran’s Day and therefore should not have even been available for a school&#160;trip.&#160;I then cancelled the reservation and , naturally requested a refund.&#160;I was then informed that the “fee” for cancellation in a completely computerized system was also $10.00 .&#160;

Talk about a two headed nickel!&#160;

By this point I was enraged and spoke to low level employees of recreation. Gov, all of whom were deeply sorry by informed me repeatedly that there was simply no way the money could be refunded.&#160;It was as if the hand of God had reached out and shut the door.&#160;

I kept demanding to speak to their supervisor and was&#160;at last put in touch with someone called a “refund advocate”&#160;who, despite the title, informed me that the only possible (if unlikely ) route to a refund was through the African Burial Ground itself.

I spoke to the education liaison of the African Burial Ground and was told she had no idea what recreation.gov was taking about.&#160;&#160;

I then looked around and found your article concerning the creation of the &#160;parasitic organization called recreation.gov and suddenly it all made a disgusting, appalling kind of sense.&#160;

So, I thank you.&#160;Just wanted you to know that the reach of &#160;&#160;Booz Allen Hamilton runs further than you even imagined.&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&lt;br /&gt;
&#160;&lt;br /&gt;
Keep up the good work.&#160;]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Paul,<br />
And thank you for your well researched account of the appalling and indefensible scam which finds American citizens forced to pay a gratuitous billion dollar corporation to play middle man for access to our public parks or forego use of them . And this at the invitation of our own government. &nbsp;&nbsp;Unfortunately, I’m here to tell you that the BAH reach is even further and more insidious than you wrote about.&nbsp;(The $6.00 “fee” &nbsp;you write about, for example, &nbsp;is now $10.00. ) I am a NYC public school teacher working in Brownsville, Brooklyn, one of the most impoverished and &nbsp;crime ridden sections of the city.&nbsp;I have long believed that class trips are a vital aspect of education and for the&nbsp;past 15 years have taken advantage of the various National Monuments and Federal Parks &nbsp;to use as resources &nbsp;for my students.&nbsp;These include the African Burial Ground, Hamilton Grange, Grant’s Tomb, Teddy Roosevelt Birthplace, Federal Hall and others.&nbsp;The kids loved such trips and, I think, always gained a great deal from the trips which were sorely missed during the almost three years of COVID. Gaining entrance to all these &nbsp;sites was merely a matter of filling out a form or just as often calling the site to make a reservation. &nbsp;And naturally, as they were federal parks, the &nbsp;over 15 years of trips never cost me a thin dime.&nbsp;</p>
<p>A few days ago to my shock and disgust I learned that, for reasons &nbsp;that were never explained &nbsp;to me, if I wanted to schedule a trip to one of these sites, in this case the African Burial Ground, I was no longer &nbsp;to deal with the site itself.&nbsp;Instead, I was now obliged to sign up with something called recreation.gov and schedule through them, specifically through their education group section. &nbsp;When I tried to do this I learned that for the privilege of my students visiting the federal site that had been previously free I would now have to pay a $10.00 “fee.”&nbsp;</p>
<p>Naturally, this mightily pissed me off.&nbsp;Nonetheless, as I was given no choice in the matter and I wanted my students to experience the African Burial Ground,&nbsp;I took out my credit card and paid the “fee.”</p>
<p>The next day learned the tickets I had been sold were for Veteran’s Day and therefore should not have even been available for a school&nbsp;trip.&nbsp;I then cancelled the reservation and , naturally requested a refund.&nbsp;I was then informed that the “fee” for cancellation in a completely computerized system was also $10.00 .&nbsp;</p>
<p>Talk about a two headed nickel!&nbsp;</p>
<p>By this point I was enraged and spoke to low level employees of recreation. Gov, all of whom were deeply sorry by informed me repeatedly that there was simply no way the money could be refunded.&nbsp;It was as if the hand of God had reached out and shut the door.&nbsp;</p>
<p>I kept demanding to speak to their supervisor and was&nbsp;at last put in touch with someone called a “refund advocate”&nbsp;who, despite the title, informed me that the only possible (if unlikely ) route to a refund was through the African Burial Ground itself.</p>
<p>I spoke to the education liaison of the African Burial Ground and was told she had no idea what recreation.gov was taking about.&nbsp;&nbsp;</p>
<p>I then looked around and found your article concerning the creation of the &nbsp;parasitic organization called recreation.gov and suddenly it all made a disgusting, appalling kind of sense.&nbsp;</p>
<p>So, I thank you.&nbsp;Just wanted you to know that the reach of &nbsp;&nbsp;Booz Allen Hamilton runs further than you even imagined.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<br />
&nbsp;<br />
Keep up the good work.&nbsp;</p>
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		<title>
		By: Ashley		</title>
		<link>https://pmags.com/the-scourge-of-rec-dot-gov#comment-699541</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ashley]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Jun 2021 05:37:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://pmags.com/?p=29035#comment-699541</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[I had no idea….bummer city! I understand the not wanting to hustle the idea, but it’s a darn good one! I think It absolutely merits some more exposure. Or maybe we can all start the conversation around campfires and when co-workers are booking their outings… What an excellent community I’ve stumbled upon tonight at work. Thanks for the wealth of information, articles and suggestions Pmags &#038; Co!]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I had no idea….bummer city! I understand the not wanting to hustle the idea, but it’s a darn good one! I think It absolutely merits some more exposure. Or maybe we can all start the conversation around campfires and when co-workers are booking their outings… What an excellent community I’ve stumbled upon tonight at work. Thanks for the wealth of information, articles and suggestions Pmags &amp; Co!</p>
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