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	Comments on: Outdoor participation down &#8211; Some thoughts	</title>
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	<description>Practical advice and musings on the outdoors, hiking, backpacking, ski touring, and camping.</description>
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		<title>
		By: Lisa		</title>
		<link>https://pmags.com/outdoor-participation-down-some-thoughts#comment-695210</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Lisa]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 16 Feb 2020 04:28:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://pmags.com/?p=26191#comment-695210</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[It would be interesting to see a comparison of current outdoor recreation rates versus indoor recreation rates (movies, restaurants, concerts, etc.) Maybe a better way to say that would be to compare how people use their available free time. Certainly there are many people who do not have a lot of free time for many of the reasons you listed. And there are also those who when they do have free time are simply too tired. I’ve been there! I can’t really speak to people who are living in areas where just getting outside is difficult because of distance, etc. I can see the problems there, I just haven’t experienced it. I’ve lived most of my life in the midwest and using the broad definition of outdoor recreation given, that hasn’t been a difficulty for me. When I was growing up going to see a movie, or going out to eat was a luxury that just didn’t happen very often. But we did stuff outside (it was Kansas, not some outdoor mecca ) because it didn’t cost much. And we made do. I still tend to live this way. I have a feeling that if you compared a group of people within a fairly similar group (similar available free time, disposable income, etc.), you’d find people just aren’t getting outside as much as people in similar circumstances used to do. But this is just conjecture. Some people absolutely do find it harder for a variety of reasons. But some people just…don’t.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It would be interesting to see a comparison of current outdoor recreation rates versus indoor recreation rates (movies, restaurants, concerts, etc.) Maybe a better way to say that would be to compare how people use their available free time. Certainly there are many people who do not have a lot of free time for many of the reasons you listed. And there are also those who when they do have free time are simply too tired. I’ve been there! I can’t really speak to people who are living in areas where just getting outside is difficult because of distance, etc. I can see the problems there, I just haven’t experienced it. I’ve lived most of my life in the midwest and using the broad definition of outdoor recreation given, that hasn’t been a difficulty for me. When I was growing up going to see a movie, or going out to eat was a luxury that just didn’t happen very often. But we did stuff outside (it was Kansas, not some outdoor mecca ) because it didn’t cost much. And we made do. I still tend to live this way. I have a feeling that if you compared a group of people within a fairly similar group (similar available free time, disposable income, etc.), you’d find people just aren’t getting outside as much as people in similar circumstances used to do. But this is just conjecture. Some people absolutely do find it harder for a variety of reasons. But some people just…don’t.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Paul Mags		</title>
		<link>https://pmags.com/outdoor-participation-down-some-thoughts#comment-695095</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Paul Mags]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Feb 2020 04:29:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://pmags.com/?p=26191#comment-695095</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[A few words of kindness go a long way. Thanks for encouraging the next generation, John.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A few words of kindness go a long way. Thanks for encouraging the next generation, John.</p>
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		<title>
		By: John Miller		</title>
		<link>https://pmags.com/outdoor-participation-down-some-thoughts#comment-695094</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[John Miller]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Feb 2020 04:08:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://pmags.com/?p=26191#comment-695094</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[I live next to a state park with about 38 miles of trails I hike quite regularly.  Often I see families and other groups with small children on the trails, it pleases me greatly.  Always I thank the adults for taking the time and effort getting the gang outside and the worth of it.  If possible I try to interact with the young, asking what they have seen, have the found any bugs or pretty rocks.  A complement on their hat, water bottle sometimes brings a big grin but mostly they&#039;re pretty shy though. 

I hope it helps in some small way to get  the kids and adults outside.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I live next to a state park with about 38 miles of trails I hike quite regularly.  Often I see families and other groups with small children on the trails, it pleases me greatly.  Always I thank the adults for taking the time and effort getting the gang outside and the worth of it.  If possible I try to interact with the young, asking what they have seen, have the found any bugs or pretty rocks.  A complement on their hat, water bottle sometimes brings a big grin but mostly they&#8217;re pretty shy though. </p>
<p>I hope it helps in some small way to get  the kids and adults outside.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Paul Mags		</title>
		<link>https://pmags.com/outdoor-participation-down-some-thoughts#comment-695008</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Paul Mags]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 08 Feb 2020 22:04:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://pmags.com/?p=26191#comment-695008</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://pmags.com/outdoor-participation-down-some-thoughts#comment-694994&quot;&gt;Jon in NYC&lt;/a&gt;.

Excellent points. When I visited Germany some years ago, sidewalks and walking paths existed everywhere.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://pmags.com/outdoor-participation-down-some-thoughts#comment-694994">Jon in NYC</a>.</p>
<p>Excellent points. When I visited Germany some years ago, sidewalks and walking paths existed everywhere.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Paul Mags		</title>
		<link>https://pmags.com/outdoor-participation-down-some-thoughts#comment-695007</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Paul Mags]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 08 Feb 2020 22:03:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://pmags.com/?p=26191#comment-695007</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://pmags.com/outdoor-participation-down-some-thoughts#comment-694993&quot;&gt;Dan&lt;/a&gt;.

And yes, the West with it&#039;s high paying tech sector and overall affluent population is a bubble.  And the growth of Denver, SLC, Vegas, and Phoenix of course.

Also, as you know, lifestyle items is what    powers outdoor sales.

Finally, being able to travel hundreds of miles round trip for backpacking is an economic privilege for fewer and fewer Americans. Overall outdoor use is down, not just for people able to travel to the Winds, Moab, etc.  ]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://pmags.com/outdoor-participation-down-some-thoughts#comment-694993">Dan</a>.</p>
<p>And yes, the West with it&#8217;s high paying tech sector and overall affluent population is a bubble.  And the growth of Denver, SLC, Vegas, and Phoenix of course.</p>
<p>Also, as you know, lifestyle items is what    powers outdoor sales.</p>
<p>Finally, being able to travel hundreds of miles round trip for backpacking is an economic privilege for fewer and fewer Americans. Overall outdoor use is down, not just for people able to travel to the Winds, Moab, etc.  </p>
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		<title>
		By: Paul Mags		</title>
		<link>https://pmags.com/outdoor-participation-down-some-thoughts#comment-695006</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Paul Mags]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 08 Feb 2020 22:00:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://pmags.com/?p=26191#comment-695006</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://pmags.com/outdoor-participation-down-some-thoughts#comment-694993&quot;&gt;Dan&lt;/a&gt;.

The numbers you are skeptical about are from the outdoor industry numbers you also trust and show a decline, not an increase. These are people who make money off the outdoors after all. If anything, the numbers might be fudged in their favor using the &quot;nefarious&quot; logic.
]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://pmags.com/outdoor-participation-down-some-thoughts#comment-694993">Dan</a>.</p>
<p>The numbers you are skeptical about are from the outdoor industry numbers you also trust and show a decline, not an increase. These are people who make money off the outdoors after all. If anything, the numbers might be fudged in their favor using the &#8220;nefarious&#8221; logic.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Jon in NYC		</title>
		<link>https://pmags.com/outdoor-participation-down-some-thoughts#comment-694994</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jon in NYC]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 08 Feb 2020 15:57:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://pmags.com/?p=26191#comment-694994</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[&lt;p&gt;Excellent meditation on this, thanks. Appreciate the material concerns that underscore why people are staying indoors – not just some conservative blaming of “lazy millenials” or other nonsense based on cultural phrenology. &lt;/p&gt;
&lt;p&gt;I’d only add that another big part of why we don’t see more local outdoorsing is the crushing despair of car culture; not just that you need a car to get many places, but that so many streets are built for cars and cars only, not for humans – and that people who aren’t the “right” people who try to be outdoors (eg black folks, among other vulnerable populations) literally get ticketed for made-up things like jaywalking or sitting outside having a beer. our society is overpoliced and not built for human-scale movement and interactions, and we’re seeing the consequences.&lt;/p&gt;
]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Excellent meditation on this, thanks. Appreciate the material concerns that underscore why people are staying indoors – not just some conservative blaming of “lazy millenials” or other nonsense based on cultural phrenology. </p>
<p>I’d only add that another big part of why we don’t see more local outdoorsing is the crushing despair of car culture; not just that you need a car to get many places, but that so many streets are built for cars and cars only, not for humans – and that people who aren’t the “right” people who try to be outdoors (eg black folks, among other vulnerable populations) literally get ticketed for made-up things like jaywalking or sitting outside having a beer. our society is overpoliced and not built for human-scale movement and interactions, and we’re seeing the consequences.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Dan		</title>
		<link>https://pmags.com/outdoor-participation-down-some-thoughts#comment-694993</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Dan]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 08 Feb 2020 15:52:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://pmags.com/?p=26191#comment-694993</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[I’ve read this reported in a few different outlets, and I must admit I’m skeptical.  I know my observations are anecdotal, but without exception every place I visit regularly has so many more people now than it did twenty years ago.  Backpacking in the Uintas, remote places in the Wind Rivers, anywhere in the Utah desert, backcountry permits for National Parks, canyoneering, mountain biking or hiking in the Wasatch, trying to camp on public lands anywhere near Moab, applying for a permitted river trip – every single one of them has seen (in my observation) huge increases in numbers.  

Perhaps it’s regional, out west we have lots of public lands so it is possible per capita use is increasing here but not the rest of the country?  That may be an explanation, but if that is true this report still feels inaccurate.  Headlines like this misrepresent what is actually going on with demand on public lands, and I fear it can be used in politically nefarious ways.  

Look at this week the management plan for Grand Staircase, it’s all about expanding use and getting tons more people to come visit.  More OHVs, more campgrounds, more signed roads, increases in group sizes, etc…  My experience in Grand Staircase is that visitation has gone up dramatically over twenty years, and these changes will only exacerbate it, and it’s taxing the resource.  Meanwhile folks read a headline like this saying less people are using the outdoors, and get the exact opposite impression.  But it just doesn’t square with what seems to be happening on the ground.  

Outdoor Industry economic numbers seem to support this view as well – sales numbers are increasing every year, and jobs supported by the outdoor industry seem to continue to grow.  I know some of those numbers only have a couple years of “official” reporting at the federal level, but by most accounts the outdoor industry is way bigger today than it was 10 or 20 years ago.  Of course, that doesn’t mean more people are actually doing the things, just buying the things.  But there is some correlation there I would guess.

Anyways, I’m definitely one of the skeptics, I could understand per-capita use dropping especially in cities with less access to public lands.  But that 1 billion fewer outdoor visits in 2018 compared to 2008 seems completely bogus to me.  Either that or I live in one helluva a bubble and the intermountain west and Colorado Plateau is not at all representative of the rest of America.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I’ve read this reported in a few different outlets, and I must admit I’m skeptical.  I know my observations are anecdotal, but without exception every place I visit regularly has so many more people now than it did twenty years ago.  Backpacking in the Uintas, remote places in the Wind Rivers, anywhere in the Utah desert, backcountry permits for National Parks, canyoneering, mountain biking or hiking in the Wasatch, trying to camp on public lands anywhere near Moab, applying for a permitted river trip – every single one of them has seen (in my observation) huge increases in numbers.  </p>
<p>Perhaps it’s regional, out west we have lots of public lands so it is possible per capita use is increasing here but not the rest of the country?  That may be an explanation, but if that is true this report still feels inaccurate.  Headlines like this misrepresent what is actually going on with demand on public lands, and I fear it can be used in politically nefarious ways.  </p>
<p>Look at this week the management plan for Grand Staircase, it’s all about expanding use and getting tons more people to come visit.  More OHVs, more campgrounds, more signed roads, increases in group sizes, etc…  My experience in Grand Staircase is that visitation has gone up dramatically over twenty years, and these changes will only exacerbate it, and it’s taxing the resource.  Meanwhile folks read a headline like this saying less people are using the outdoors, and get the exact opposite impression.  But it just doesn’t square with what seems to be happening on the ground.  </p>
<p>Outdoor Industry economic numbers seem to support this view as well – sales numbers are increasing every year, and jobs supported by the outdoor industry seem to continue to grow.  I know some of those numbers only have a couple years of “official” reporting at the federal level, but by most accounts the outdoor industry is way bigger today than it was 10 or 20 years ago.  Of course, that doesn’t mean more people are actually doing the things, just buying the things.  But there is some correlation there I would guess.</p>
<p>Anyways, I’m definitely one of the skeptics, I could understand per-capita use dropping especially in cities with less access to public lands.  But that 1 billion fewer outdoor visits in 2018 compared to 2008 seems completely bogus to me.  Either that or I live in one helluva a bubble and the intermountain west and Colorado Plateau is not at all representative of the rest of America.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Paul Mags		</title>
		<link>https://pmags.com/outdoor-participation-down-some-thoughts#comment-694991</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Paul Mags]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 08 Feb 2020 15:44:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://pmags.com/?p=26191#comment-694991</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In reply to &lt;a href=&quot;https://pmags.com/outdoor-participation-down-some-thoughts#comment-694975&quot;&gt;Scott&lt;/a&gt;.

Thx, Scott. I appreciate the kind words and your thoughts esp.

Joan and I made financial sacrifices in terms of our overall income. But together we can lead a life that works for us.

]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In reply to <a href="https://pmags.com/outdoor-participation-down-some-thoughts#comment-694975">Scott</a>.</p>
<p>Thx, Scott. I appreciate the kind words and your thoughts esp.</p>
<p>Joan and I made financial sacrifices in terms of our overall income. But together we can lead a life that works for us.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Scott		</title>
		<link>https://pmags.com/outdoor-participation-down-some-thoughts#comment-694975</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Scott]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 08 Feb 2020 05:40:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">https://pmags.com/?p=26191#comment-694975</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Time and money…. in my experience I have had one or the other at different phases of my life. I have yet to find myself with a sufficient amount of both.  The desire to get outside away from everything else, the time spent alone to reflect on the wonders of nature, being “disconnected” and able to soak in the silence is my personal reset. Life for me would be hollow without these times. I think it boils down to what people really want to do with the ever shrinking time bank. Time is the currency, spend it wisely.  When we look back in the rear view mirror we will cherish the memories of those times and not the money.  Money provides a path to do more and unfortunately people in these times have outcomes driven by the bounds of money, and ultimately how they chose to spend their time.
I hope that future generations see the value in being more connected to nature and natural life rhythms.
…….right place but a couple hundred years too late?
You were right to walk away from the cubicle life, and your words and wisdom do inspire others and I thank you for that.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Time and money…. in my experience I have had one or the other at different phases of my life. I have yet to find myself with a sufficient amount of both.  The desire to get outside away from everything else, the time spent alone to reflect on the wonders of nature, being “disconnected” and able to soak in the silence is my personal reset. Life for me would be hollow without these times. I think it boils down to what people really want to do with the ever shrinking time bank. Time is the currency, spend it wisely.  When we look back in the rear view mirror we will cherish the memories of those times and not the money.  Money provides a path to do more and unfortunately people in these times have outcomes driven by the bounds of money, and ultimately how they chose to spend their time.<br />
I hope that future generations see the value in being more connected to nature and natural life rhythms.<br />
…….right place but a couple hundred years too late?<br />
You were right to walk away from the cubicle life, and your words and wisdom do inspire others and I thank you for that.</p>
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